It sounds like the TAG definition of spelunker was based on those actual dudes:
"Spelunker - person who goes into caves without proper equipment or the desire to learn/practice proper safety/conservation techniques.
Example: When five people go spelunking, everyone has well-worn tennis shoes, two might have flashlights, one claims to know about the cave, and none in the group has a helmet. The word spelunker comes from the sound one makes when they slip, fall, and land in a pool of water - SPEEE-LUNK!
The difference between a Spelunker and a Caver is: Cavers rescue Spelunkers!"
Or sometimes only try.
Dale
Friday, August 19, 2005
Utah Cave: TAG Definition of "Spelunker"
Utah Cave: Darwin Award Material
Darwin award material.
freediving sumps....told you. 1' or 20', doesn't make a difference. Don't do it. Nose draggers and eardippers are fine just no total submersion, ever.
not to mention....no helmets, etc, etc,etc.
stupid is as stupid does.
-HH
Utah Cave
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Utah Cave
What happened is a real shame. Sounds to me like a good night ended in tragedy after a few beers and a night out. Have any of you guys ever decided, after midnight, to drive over to a cave you heard about and "see if it goes"? This was a real recipe for disaster: Shorts, sandals, maybe one flashlight... I'll bet that cave will be gated in no time; before it's actually explored by experts.
Billy
Monday, June 27, 2005
Amphibious Redneck Abomination
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 6:41 PM
Subject: floating 4 wheeler email
IT WORKED!!!!
Part nine of "Rednecks Gone Bad" or “The Other Pearl River Resort”
Picture: Hubert and his impossible amphibious machine.
Video: Patent Pending (this is secret footage of the prototype)

From: Andy
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: RE: hardin- crook 4 wheeler project
Its beginning to look like a twisted episode of “The lost boys” only instead of vampires you guys are Mississippian’s. “They sleep all night. Party all day. Never grow old. Never die. It’s fun to be a Mississippian”. Roy
From: Houston
how about a full auto HK MP5 PDW 9mm...cyclic rate of 900 rounds/min????? We could use it to "motivate" Hubert across the Pearl. -hh
From: Shawn
Hubbie - I am also bringing some steel cable, rope (not enough to cross the pearl), life jacket, scuba gear, bagels.
From: Hubert
Amphitrax Project status:
--->Items in-hand: Four 25x13x9 tubes, Twenty 48" zip ties
--->Items needed:
1) a package (20 or more) of 34" (or longer) industrial zip ties. Home Repo is an absolute rip-off.
I found a place I think is named "Southern Pipe and Supply" on Hwy49 next to a Dairy Queen (right off the I20 exit). They claim to have lots of 34" zip at .07/each which beats the $1.00/ea I paid for my 48" ones.
3) A form of paddle for the tires. Ok, this ain't easy to describe, but we're gonna need some "go" attached to the rotating rear tires.
Of course it's no speedboat, but it would suck to have it float and no go.
From: Hubert
Yeah, I would like a little more float in reserve. It is going to be -very- close with machine+pilot.
Did I mention that since our last communique I have procured 20 48" zips (probably need 5-10 34" short ones as well) and 4 25x12x9 Shindawa "rotsa-ruck" tubes?
Oh, I also mentioned the master plan to the Polaris dealership where I found the tubes. In case they'd been there, done that and had words of wisdom.
Polaris' official response was: "You're joking, right?" and refused to discuss the matter further during the transaction.
Wimps.
From: Matt
Well, in the interest of advancing scientific knowledge I would like to mention a few things.
1. A tire is a circular torus. V=2p2Rr2 So the happy news is you were extra conservative. I get 5.3 cu. ft. However I have had a few beers tonight.
2. There is something called a stability triangle. (It’s not actually a triangle, it is a pyramid.) If you don’t keep the center of gravity within this at all times, your system will seek a more stable arrangement (usually upside down).
3. Remember that the vehicle will sink until the weight of the water displaced equals the weight of the vehicle, cargo, passengers, and crew. While I could probably derive you a formula for that, it would probably be wrong (see beer comment above). Anyhow, where exactly are the intake and exhaust on these four wheelers?
4. I figure 5.3 cubic feet of air for each tire. At 60 psi, that is about 87 cubic feet of air total. Houston, what’s the average adult’s lung capacity? .2 cubic feet or so? Why not bring along a 12v pump (these things have electric start, right)?
5. Forget the 400lb fat asses (you two have really let yourselves go, huh?) How much does the four-wheeler weigh?
From: Dale
Subject: RE: hardin- crook 4 wheeler project
I think the first test should come complete with a support vessel. My canoe should be here this week. Also, the test "pilot" should wear a life preserver (I have extras).
But you guys may be on to something big. Your basic redneck has a bass boat and a 4-wheeler, but he can't afford a racin' boat too. This will allow even the average redneck to take his motorsports out on the water, where all new terms will have to be invented ("bumping balloons" just doesn't have the same ring as "grinding fenders" or "tradin' paint").
Let's get this show on the, er, water.
From: Hubert
Houston, I was thinking pre-inflate the tubes and carry 'em down on the front and rear racks. Bet they fit, and will double as a storage bin for Krystal cheeseburgers.
Remind me to bring a Schrader-valve remover thingy.
From: Hubert
Subject: Re: hardin- crook 4 wheeler project
Oh, yeah - Houston,
Don't mention this to anyone yet, just in case it turns out to be a hare-brained idea.
BTW, didn't Archimedes drown?
From: Houston
Subject: hardin- crook 4 wheeler project
This is a summary of hubert and houston's discussions about how to get the 4 wheelers across the pearl river in order to ride the trails "over thar".
the leading proposal is to ziptie an extra 4-wheeler -like inner tube to the outside of each existing tire. We could easily pack the deflated tires, hand pump, and long heavy duty zipties down the trails to the river....then inflate, ziptie them on, and go a floatin' and hoping that the math is right. Archimedes principle I think.
Folks this is a huge mission concerning the 4 wheelin' riding scene back there. I've run out most of the trails with exception of Mule Jail and Spillway area. We need to broaden our horizons and this is the way to do it.
Oh yeah...Hubert has stated that he will ride ...er, float...er, swim...across first.
From: Hubert
Excellent.
------------------------------
Let's say for estimating purposes an average tube has a outer diameter of 22", a width of 12" and an inner diameter of 9: That leaves us with a tube diameter (cross section) of 22" - 9" = 13"
We still need the circumference (length of tube "unrolled") , so 2 PI r, or 2 * 3.14159 * 7" (-4" to get center of tube, and just cause I feel conservative) = 44" (tube "unrolled")
Now, knowing the formula for the volume of a cylinder:V = (pi)r^2 x h where h is the height.
V = 3.14159 (13 * .5) ^2 * 44"
so, 3.14159 * 42.25 * 44" = 5840 cu in
or, 3.38 cubic feet displacement per tube.
Just cause I'm feeling antsy and I tend to screw up mundane math details, I'm going to halve the displacement to 1.7 cu ft.
Ok, 62.4 pounds per cubic foot of Pearl River water so
1.7 * 62.4 pounds = 106 lbs bouyancy per tube.
4 tubes x 106 = 424 lbs .
Sanity check: Picture a 400 lb fatass floating on 4 large ATV tubes in the Pearl River. .... I guess I could/have seen that happening.
...Ok, it'll probably work. Let me know if i screwed up the math.
*****
Puzzled redneck looking at wire running across river: Dude, that's not a "trot line", we plumbed the Pearl with Gigabit Ethernet.
...Install ports in a few strategically-located oak trees and you'll never have to worry about being house bound and on-call again.
From: Hubert
To: Houston
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: The answer to the question no one asked
Q: How would I make my 4-wheeler float across a river while appearing smart and stylish at the same time?
A: Four inner tubes, twelve 48" zip ties, and one plastic gold crown air freshener.
Monday, May 23, 2005
Poster Boy, May 2005: Chinn Springs
Sunday, May 08, 2005
Mud Fest
I can't wait to get underground again. I've got the itch now. we need to hit a different variety of cave...the wet muddy nasty ones! and I've got the perfect one in mind....Pettijohn's in Lafayette, GA.....7 mi. of cave or so....and it ain't like Fitton's but its a mud fest blast, yes it is. I've been there about a dozen times (including an ill fated in cave camping trip) but still have tons of it to do. I want to follow the stream passage to the lost hammer section and the waterfall which I've never been to.
Matt, Reed, and Hubert all have extensive experience in this jewel.
Great campsite at a spring located nearby (the Blue Hole) and that's also the trailhead for Ellisons' cave.
Pettijohn is calling my name.
-HH
Saturday, April 30, 2005
Fitton Cave: We batted .600
Trip Report by Billy Crews
While the caving portion of this trip would be the real deal, the hike in and out of Fitton is a jewel of a trip in itself. The hike into Fitton is approximately two and a quarter miles, so not counting the distance we would travel underground, we would get a nice hike of nearly four and one-half miles above ground. Loaded up with our gear we headed down the trail, and I do mean down: Although I was excited about getting in to Fitton, the first ‘quarter mile of the hike-in sucked. Going downhill from the beginning would mean an up hill finish... In no time we had made the beaver dam that currently blocks the Van Dyke spring with its confluence of Cecil Creek. For the rest of the hike we would more or less follow Cecil Creek upstream for nearly two mile and until a sizable wash enters the creek from the east. Our little band of five strung out with varying topics breaking out in discussion as we made our way down the trail.

At about halfway through the hike-in, we came across a rock wall that is reported to be one of the longest and oldest standing rock walls in the Ozarks. Located near the wall was a scattering of antique grade “junk” - evidence of the pioneers that had once lived along Cecil Creek and who had also constructed the wall. It was nearly forty-five minutes since we had hit the trail head and had finally arrived at the eastern wash. Turning out of Cecil Creek, we followed the smaller watershed upstream until we came across the “door”.




Monday, April 11, 2005
Valhalla Trip Post-Mortem: Gear/Technique Issues
From: "Matt"
Subject: RE: Pics of the Valhalla Trip
Wow, 4lbs/100ft. that is about half the weight of caving rope. For spectra (UHMWPE) and polyester, try not to get the sheath too hot. If you have a really screaming rappel, get the descender off the rope quickly.
I do wonder how the spectra will hold up to repeated flexing. As I recall it was better than aramids (like Kevlar) but worse than nylon or polyester. Flex fatigue is usually inversely proportional to modulus (stiffness). The high molecular orientation is great for tensile strength, good for modulus, and bad for flex fatigue. Although as Houston mentioned, half of 5000lbs is still a heck of a lot.
From: Shawn
Roy, my rope is: BlueWater Canyon Rope 9.2mm
"A more economical version of the Canyon Pro. 100% polyester sheath. 100% nylon core. The sheath strand design utilizes the same Z/S, S/Z cabled construction as the Canyon Pro. Excellent diameter to strength ratio. Flourescent Orange. Available in 200 and 600 ft. lengths. Tensile Strength: 5000 lbs, safe working load: 333 lbs, weight per 100 ft: 4.03 lbs"
Joe told us that your rope made of the recently declassified military grade Kevlar impregnated with silicon. You bought your rope from the guy, remember. I ordered my rope before the trip.
You think he was making that stuff up? What about the 10.5 megabit SLR just released waterproof canyon camera he was getting? Not that too.
I think your rope is the pro version of mine. 8mm.
From: Andy
The rope that I have is not Kelvar - Shawn's is though I believe. Mine is 100% Spectra 1000 core:
SPECTRA, DYNEEMA & HIGH MODULUS DYNEEMA Spectra is the trade name for a high performance polyethylene (HPPE) fiber manufactured by Allied Signal. Dyneema is manufactured by DSM (Netherlands) and is the same material. Originally introduced in 1985, there are two versions: Spectra 900 and Spectra 1000. The original Spectra 900 has a higher elongation and can not be sewn. The Spectra 1000 was introduced to overcome these drawbacks and is used today for paragliders. The two types of Spectra are the source for the myth "that all Spectra stretches".
From: Matt
I've rappelled 200ft on an eight, on caving rope. Sure it's less safe than a rack, but if you want to be really safe you can watch it on TV.
I think the spiral pattern the poor motion-sick caver behind you leaves on the sides of the pit is fascinating. I tried to do that to Reed once, but he got me back by knocking ice down on me for much of the drop.
Anyway, Dave and Houston are not the final authorities on what is cool. I've seen both of them do stuff that would make your hair curl.
As to the Kevlar rope, I have some experience with some of the high strength filaments - aramids and super-oriented UHMWPE (spectra, dyneema, and others). What I recall as of two or three years ago is that flex fatigue was far worse than nylon, heat resistance was worse as well. Also, the knot strength of a figure eight knot in nylon rope is 70-80%, while for the high strength filaments it was more like 50%. So, especially rappelling with an eight, I would be interested to know how quickly the Kevlar rope lost strength. They could have solved the problems, I haven't kept up with it since I have been out of the industry and almost out of caving and climbing.
From: Shawn
Kirk, you set a new record for bugging out and leaving gear in four states!
Correct that, not gear, disgusting muddy denim artifacts and other stuff. I do have the dirty laundry, on you along with about 15 pounds of gear. B. has already washed your stuff though, so you will be getting it back.
Question: did you have three croll ascenders? a new one and two black ones? are those Matt's? do you want me to deliver all this stuff to Dale along with his Bastard Agitation Cooler? my glove collection grew. any claims can be filed. two homeless biners are being held ransom for a straight swap - anonymous replies accepted.
From: Andy
What are you talking about? I would do it again. Dale got so freaked out about it so I questioned Houston and Dave and both of them told me that it was cool. Besides, this was no standard figure 8. It was a Piranha which has multiple friction points built into it. What did you guys think about the picks I took ON repel?
From: Dale
Joke, what joke?!? He was actually using a figure 8. Probably because I told him not to. Since that's the only guaranteed way to get Roy to do something.
From: William K
I thought the figure 8 joke was pretty funny...
From: Dale
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: Pics of the Valhalla Trip
Says HH: I have the joneses to go again...already.
Says I: Neversink!
Great photos, Roy. By the way, I think I'd remove the reference to using a figure 8 on Valhalla Pit.
Monday, August 23, 2004
Zion 2004: Second Thoughts
But with regard to Behunin Canyon... What is Shawn thinking? Rapels of up to 160 feet? Will we be ready by the time we do that last day hike? I hope so. One note here... the guy was hiking by himself. Stupid in my book. We all need to depend on each other to be safe and make it our unscathed (did I spell that right?)
Laters, Will
Zion 2004: Gung-Ho Viewpoint
Roy
Friday, August 20, 2004
Environmental Politics II
that's my main problem with congress and this administration--how they're able to ignore the latest and best science (public opinion as well--check any gallup poll on the environment as an issue topic) and still deny it is beyond me... today's number of 'concerned scientists' groups against the dubya-led administration is longer than it even was for Satan himself, James Watt!!
kirk
Environmental Politics I
Let face it, snowbike were wide open during Reagan-bush, cut back then banned during
Clinton, brought back and now all at record numbers during W. Bush. This undoubtedly
points to many other shifts in policy and practice that will change our national wild spaces.
And, in my opinion, it sucks.
Now, the untold story, based on a conversation I had two years ago with a double tour ranger at Yellowstone: the real driving force behind the snowmobile movement is the park contractors who benefit from winter guests at the parks lodges and concessions. The numbers of winter visitor drops drastically when no snowmobiles are allowed, mainly for reasons of transportation. Even though there are snow cats that bring people in to the park in the winter, many rooms are vacant. With the snowmobile crowd comes stops at the hotels and beds filled. So, Xterra, who has the Yellowstone contact right now, would hate to loose that 'guest service' that snowmobiles provide. And they quietly support the poor independent snowmobile operators outside the park in their effort to save their 'only means of income', probably by lobbying at the highest levels.
By the way, all those poor operators also have other incomes like fishing guides, wildlife tours, and a whole host of other tourist trappings outside the park.
That being noted, I believe there is enough land for combined usage and the State of Nevada proves it. We don't need snowmobiles in Yellowstone Park, there are millions of acres of public land in Wyoming and Idaho with arguably better resources (for snowmobiling) than the park. The only problem is, there are not millions of paying customers waiting to sign up for a ride outside the Park. So, what the real issue is, of course, is not the use of the park, but the access to the visitor market. Just follow the money. And as usual with any American debate we are forced to endure the sound bite sharp ends of 'loss of only livelihood' vs 'disturbing the gentle
nature of our National Park'. Neither is faithful.
I believe in local input for land policy, but it must be uncontaminated local opinion and not be influenced by outside business interests. Honestly, I would support whatever decision the local park ranger made for the use of the park as long as it was not biased by politics.
Shawn
Wednesday, January 14, 2004
Camp's Gulf Caverns - Newbies going underground.

I left work that Thursday a little early to raid the local Walmart of all its "spelunking gear": A cheap headlight, batteries, extra batteries, Dickies, $50.00 worth of chemical glow sticks, snacks and extra batteries. I added my new purchases to my cache of gear at home (boots, gloves, hard hat and duct tape). Kissing the family bye, I hit the road, heading north to Brandon, MS. I arrived at Shawn’s house near midnight, found the couch and managed three hours of rest as Shawn woke me promptly at 3: AM. With the rest of the house waking up, I met the crew already there and we shook hands all around. Since I had drove up from SoLA and Tim had come up from Biloxi, MS, we two could have used some more shut-eye but we were just as anxious as the two locals, (Shawn and Dale) to get started. I would meet Roy for the first time later that day as he was en route, solo, from L'il Rock, AR. As Shawn got the coffee going, the rest of us headed outside in the pitch black morning and started transferring the gear from various vehicles into the infamous “McKee White Party Van”. As organized as could be, we finally started trekking towards Tennessee at about 4: AM.
As this was my "induction" trip into the SC gang, I felt like I was being baptized. Along with a lot of southern, good old boy ribbing of each other, you're likely to come across some inner competition amongst the group from time to time. Case in point: The coveted Gear-Head Award – Given to the individual with the neatest, most technologically advanced, gadget that one couldn't possibly do without, (or really even need) in the middle of no where. Just about all the way to Tennessee, Shawn and I shared pilot/co-pilot duties as Dale and Tim argued over whose handheld GPS unit more accurately identified our exact position, heading, altitude, speed... Hell, all I knew, and needed to know, was that we were headed due east on the interstate. The “award” was a tie, needless to say. We made a late morning pit stop in Birmingham, AL where we met up with Reed Hilton, another SC member and experienced caver. After a late breakfast, Reed led us through the woods and into and through the cave on a table napkin. (I’m sure my wife would be so glad at how well we planned and prepared for this trip...). Shawn and Reed discussed our trip, time-wise, as Reed was our “Call Out”. -Your “Call Out” is the individual you telephone upon safely exiting the cave. If the call out isn't made by the prearranged time, he is your 911 team leader and link to the outside world.



Like most, if not all, TAG (Tenn.-Ala.-Ga. area) caves, Camp's Gulf maintains a constant temperature of approximately sixty deg. at 100% relative humidity. Mobility in this cave was tough, so although the air seemed cool, you sweat-ed your ass off getting around. The fact that you could become soaking wet in a cool environment is what makes one element of caving so dangerous: Wet coupled with cold could, in the right conditions of injury or immobility, lead to hypothermia or worse. The air itself seemed heavy and became even more so, say, when you knocked the dust off your clothing only to watch it suspend indefinitely in front of your face. At least in this portion of the cave, the air was dead still. Or, in caving parlance – “the cave didn't “breathe” right here”. The same went for our own breathing as the co2 clung to the air in front of you. The huge, talus floor, although made of SUV sized solid rocks, was coated in a thin film of wet silt and dust thus evidencing periodic flooding. Sometimes the rocks were damp, sometimes slippery and at other times sticky. -Nasty stuff.


Our next goal, should we get this far, (as Reed pointed out), would be the “mouth”. “It will be located in the “left” corner (of a round room)” Reed had reported to us. “You’ll know it when you see it-looking down, it has one big tooth, or fang, right in the middle.” It was in search of the “Mouth” that we found a most spectacular formation. We found it by ear as it was directly under a waterfall coming from the ceiling overhead. Although the sound came from every where, due to the echo, it was more defined down and to the left from the central pile. The eight foot tall formation resembled a statue that belonged in the middle of a fountain, say on an alien planet. As I did my BREAD bit, the rest of the guys covered every inch of the large “pretty” - they must have taken no less than one hundred pictures and from every different angle.

A half hour later, we came to the first “Funnel of Doom” where we set up a small base camp of lanterns and music. We did some BREAD and shifted gears to Pink Floyd. Wrapping up the 10 from the last 50 we approached the funnel. The hole before us was nearly perfectly round and thirty feet across. The floor around it tapered slowly to the center then fell drastically, twenty feet straight down to a pool. (The permanent water table?) Since the funnel favored the right side of the bore hole the only way around was the left. It was here that we found tracks (six inch deep boot prints) leading to the far side. The tracks were centered three feet from the left wall and two feet from the funnel's edge. OK, I told myself, be careful; step only where others before you have been. I eased passed the funnel and just as I gained safe ground it happened: Tim, bringing up the rear, slipped. Falling forward, he landed on his chest in the slick mud. “Aww shit” he yelled, followed by “HELP!” He had begun to slip back.. He threw out his left hand and clawed at the wet earth, no good, he slipped more. This time he tried with his right - no good, back he went. Shawn and Roy, pushing for the end had separated from us slightly. I immediately laid down, facing Tim, and stretched for his hand with all I had. Dale had jumped at my feet to help hold me. No good, Tim was too far - we were going to lose him. With all he had, Tim again threw his left arm out and finally got some purchase on the slick mud. With Dale holding me by the ankles, I inched forward on my belly and we grabbed hands. Tim wiggled up to me and Dale and finally found good ground. He stood up and grinned: “I’m okay.” That Tim is one cool cucumber. We caught up to Shawn and Roy at the second Funnel of Doom and it was here that I succumbed to a near total mental collapse.
With Shawn and Roy rejoining us, we reorganized our gear and routed for the exit. Being good sports, the rest of the guys let me take point, for a while, and I set a pretty good pace as I still wanted out - Exit Fever? Can we have a hell yeah...? Heading up, down, over and under, glow sticks beckoned from hundreds of yards away; each chemical light seemed to quicken my step - to hell with that 50/10 crap, I want out. We decided to take a good long rest when we finally re-entered the Registry. What had taken us six hours to do going in had taken us only two coming out. Near total exhaustion and keeping quiet, we all laid back and rested. Every now and then I would flash my light across the chamber and catch a glimpse of the reflector on the large boulder which hid the exit through the breakdown behind it. The bike reflector was put up by cavers years ago as an exit marker for those on the way out. We were tired, filthy, sore, and hungry, but that reflector beamed confidence, so we also felt good.And that was when the rock fell: You didn’t know what the cracking noise was at first, but when it found the floor, you knew – part of the ceiling had just came loose. Of course, Camp's Gulf had been loosing it’s ceiling for eons. The floor which we had hiked for hours was nothing but the ceiling at one time. Nobody said a word as the thunder echoed throughout the entire center of the earth. Nobody made as much as a cursory glance at another caver. Although I think we were all under the impression the rock had fallen in one of the other rooms, it was still an ominous event. I think it was Dale who commented: “it sounded as small as a Nissan.” But that wasn’t made mention of until we were out of the cave under the moon and stars. “Cave-ins” are taboo subjects while underground…
No - nobody said a word, but we all got up and began repacking our gear for the final hump out of ‘Camp's. It was like when you realize you suddenly overstayed your welcome. We stretched and massaged our filthy bodies and commenced to hike out and that was when we realized we had lost Roy.
We had all ran out of drinking water on the way out, so Roy had taken it upon himself to find some more. Earlier that day, when we first entered the Registry (or was it years ago?) we could hear water trickling from somewhere on the bottom of the room. It was this creek that Roy was in search of. He disappeared around a few boulders and just didn’t come back and nobody had noticed. We called for him, which was of no use. Sound echoed from every possible direction; it was no good, we would have to go look for him. The four of us began the descent to the un-investigated lower portion of the Registry. We couldn’t maintain voice contact, but I think we could all see the other’s lights bouncing around. But it was only four shafts of light; where the hell was Roy? Within about ten minutes, we had all found the creek flowing through the bottom of the room and there sat Roy. He had made a water run, sat down and just took a break... no big deal. As we neared his position, he switched his head lamp on and gave us a “What’s up?” Sunday morning came and with it a light snow. The Tennessee hills were dusted in a brilliant white blanket that was still coming down. A small snowball fight ensued as we packed the vehicles for the ride home. As we descended the Cumberland Plateau, making our way towards Chattanooga, I took notice of the weather outside: It was fiercely cold and snowing. Yep, it was perfect caving weather.


